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Sunday, 11 June 2017

How can you consciously contemplate

When there's no debate
The long awaited (sic) part 2 sequel to So much to answer for is finally here.

I don't mind a good discussion. I can learn a lot from them.

But some "people" (like certain online rodents) are near impossible to have a sensible discussion with. What I expect when dealing with an adult is some respect for facts and logic, I prefer to argue and debate with someone who responds calmly and with reasoned arguments; in short, someone who is prepared to enter into a dialogue and debate the points raised and who looks at the evidence.

It's frustrating to argue with someone who responds to everything dismissively, with non-sequiturs and straw-man arguments, who evades with sledging, who rationalises and attempts to close the argument when out-maneuvered. It's the kind of thing that God's faithful and ideologues do.

Take this recent Twitter exchange as an example that followed Martin Rossiter's response to Morrissey's Manchester bombing statement:



Earlier, there had been an exchange of views in the toilets of the Wrong Arms with TRB. This is copied and pasted verbatim and without permission (because I'm evil, as you shall see, so I have nothing to loose).

Removing a lot of comments today.
Only from outsiders looking for a fight.
I would love to know if that removed comment below my comment quoting the Brighton bombing quote was in response to my comment.
The response from Our Mozzer, who I've already told you is the fraud who took over MW, was indeed a response to you. Let me retrieve it for
you.
You would agree with Rat.All of you here praise and preach how people need to think for themselves, yet that is the opposite of what you do.
You listen to everything this "Morrissey" says, and you do as he says. See the irony?
Why delete that? I believe that I wrote something very similar. Hardly inflammatory. A reasonable argument. How can you conciously contimplate when there is no debate?
I deleted it because I don't want the cunt on my blog. His words are irrelevant.
The words were certainly nonsensical given my qualified desent from the FTM groupthink, but you are in your rights to implement a ban. It's a very MW thing to do. It's tradition.
'FTM groupthink'? Pathetic. You really think you're on a higher plain, don't you, and yet your, "I'm a vegan & you're not" line
is straight out of the playground. Fuck off.
You have proven my point exactly.
You don't have a point. Now do excuse me whilst I go off to join the Catholic Church, PETA & all the other groups that Morrissey says I must
 
join.
You have turned into Uncle Skinny. Go to Solo, and I'll go to waste in The Wrong Arms. Farewell.

Groupthink 101

Let's examine groupthink. The term as we currently know it was defined by Irving Janis in 1972. In his seminal paper on groupthink, he defined it as a " psychological drive for consensus at any cost that suppresses dissent and appraisal of alternatives in cohesive decision making groups." In this case, the BRS stands in for a "cohesive decision making" group.

I quote from the Wikipedia page on groupthink:

To make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink.

Type I: Overestimations of the group — its power and morality
1 - Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
2 - Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.

Type II: Closed-mindedness
1- Rationalizing warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
2 - Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent, or stupid.

Type III: Pressures toward uniformity
1 - Self-censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
2 - Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
3 - Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty"
4 - Mindguards— self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

The Type I symptoms concern a "masters of the universe" status, which is appropriate for Janis' original context, which was a "psychological study of [American] foreign-policy decisions and fiascoes." But even those play out for the diminutive, bullying pimple on the universe that is the BRS.

Here's how the narrative goes. Morrissey issues a typical firebrand and divisive statement. As an active BRS member, I anticipate a hostile response if I suggest any criticism of Morrissey's statement from the group's self-appointed, comment deleting Mindguard, so I self-censored for a while. At the slightest, qualified dissent, direct pressure is placed on me, my loyalty to the group is questioned and I am characterised as stupid and evil (Uncle Skinny, no less). If I had remained silent, agreement would have been assumed.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Now for the well-reasoned comments....

38 comments:

  1. What a pretentious little article, Comrade, I say so because only a bore would need to lable everything and everyone around him. You must also remember that the BRS is more than Rat. Your disillusion seems to stem from your inability to pick a side and stick with it, instead you show through your twit screen shots that you flip flop quiet easily, which personally I find to be a worse trait than standing solidly behind your own opinion.
    In fact, I don't think BRS is a vehicle for groupthink it's quite the opposite. I've found my own definition of groupthink "In psychology groupthink refers to phenomenon that sacrifices personal creativity, innovation, and conflict for group consensus." No one has sacrificed their creativity for the group goal actually I think it has increased our overall creativity what with Rats blog, Andrea's and Marianne's blogs as well, even Chuck (banned) contributed writing pieces in her exile. We are a group of anti-groupthinkers. Just because you cannot agree with rat or even yourself does not mean you can label us to your liking.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You mean, I have an open mind and wear my education, politics and values on my sleeve? All true. I change my plea to guilty.

      That I am open to correction and re-evaluation of my position in light of the evidence or a compelling argument I find more intellectually honest than stubbornly sticking with something that I see as wrong. I seek truth, not faith, and I am quite happy (and not disillusioned) to follow through with that process. It is others who seem to insist, groupthink-like, that one must agree without question, pick a side and stay with it no matter what and who attempt to enforce the party-line without engaging in a mature debate.

      Dear Leader OM and Mindguard Rat's attempts to enforce groupthink has caused divisions and defections. I never said that the attempt to enforce groupthink had been successful. What you are describing and what we have seen is what we would expect.

      Thank you for at least having the honesty to comment using your own monica and sticking to the issues.

      Delete
    2. There's nothing like giving Rat a good hard look in the mirror, although it's terribly pointless. He is entirely unable to see his own flaws and hypocrisy. I don't agree with your views necessarily Comrade but your plight with BRS... well... let's just say it happens a lot 'round here.

      As for Jaz's reply - anyone who has demonstrated creativity or individual thinking has either been ripped apart by Snoozefest Simon or told to leave BRS.

      1. Robert (clearly a genius - told to leave BRS and not post on FTM)
      2. MerryAnne - ripped apart by Rat
      3. Marcus - ripped apart by Rat
      4. Chuck - God knows, but she's been sent packing too.

      Now all we have left are "people who are nice" meaning two-faced bores who will vomit profuse rainbows about anything Slime-on says or does even if he were holding their own children for ransom in a dingy basement in Bradford.

      Delete
    3. That is not what I mean at all, Obviously you have your education, politics and values, these are what shape your opinion, I suppose the only thing you lack is conviction. You fail to  stand behind your own thoughts regardless if they are in agreement or disagreement with others.
      For example, when you say you are open to correction, to me that sounds like you look foward to being corrected. Perhaps you've come to expect someone telling you what's right and wrong until someone else comes along with an opinion to suit you then you follow them.
      If you were really on a path to find truth you wouldnt look for a truth that is defined by others standards, but your own. Your ideas are the only absolutes that can be modified by other people's opinions. Yet you blame a figurehead and a blogger for giving you the impression that you might be wrong about absolutely nothing. It's a fallacy, a moot point you are trying to make. There is no unwillingness where there shouldn't be and where there is, there shall be none. Thank you for the space to rant. I am quite finished now.

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    5. I am happy to be challenged and corrected if it's a reasonable criticism. Anything else is ego.

      Actually, your previous comment got me reflecting (no bad thing) and I realised that my original quote was "FTM groupthink" but that in my pretentious little article I had broadened my terminology to encompass all of the BRS. Should I have stuck to "FTM groupthink" and TRB? Maybe, as FTM is his blog, like @BlueRoseSociety is (one of) his handles in the Wrong Arms. Then I realised that all of us who still comment on FTM are part of the collective that the Mindguardian attack mouse keeps in line by enforcing groupthink, myself included.

      See what happens as soon as you disagree and challenge and think for yourself.

      Not a flip flop or a lack of conviction. A process. How can you consciously contemplate when there is no debate?

      Delete
    6. Jazmine is spot on, you are a Comrade Flip flop. Having posted your two long pieces of bull shit about how you aren't part of the groupthink, you now deduce that you are part of it after all and that you are being controlled by Rat. I hope you've enjoyed your self indulgence, you have wasted my time.

      Delete
    7. I have a co worker who is just like comrade flip flop. She agrees with one person and then if someone else gives a different opinion, she'll agree with that. comrade flip flop, you try to portray yourself as a free thinker and yet you are probably one of the most easily influenced people I have ever come across.

      You will now disagree, which actually means that once again you are being influenced.

      Delete
    8. Dear first anon on this reply, I can assure you that Marcus was not ripped apart by Rat, in fact Marcus danced rings around Rat, or rather around his pathetic Broken character.

      Was Morrissey involved in any of it? We'll never know.

      King of the Anons

      Delete
    9. Hello.

      As I'm mentioned here - well, why not join in. I genuinely hope Moz wasn't involved - my heart says he wasn't involved in making fun of me for my depression which seems to be such a lively scream all over FTM and Solo - L-Oh-Double-L. For all those who laugh at me for wearing my heart on my sleeve - well how great of you, such fun - ENJOY!

      And of course Marcus danced rings around Rat - it's incredibly simple to do so - as Marcus is brilliantly bright - and Rat, my dear - you are not bright, although it must pain you terribly and you will forever be shrouded in the unease of knowing you are not...

      Yes, I've blocked most of you, but I honestly do wish you well as repugnant as such a thought is - it must be awful to live with knowing how you tear apart people's lives, and hearts - but for sport, of course! It's all on the internet so certainly to you these are not real people... What great fun!

      The rumours are keeping me grounded but they're not completely unfounded... and I doubt anyone cares as it's been my life to end my own way. I am myself as I'll always be. And I'll stay true to that.

      I would forgive you all in a second... I honestly would - and I could bet money on who is behind it - but I also know that you'll never own up to impersonating someone who is full of heart and intelligence - someone you could never understand. Oh yes... and humour... but sadly, you don't get his humour either - ouch. He's a nice guy, you know; yes of course he can have an acerbic tongue - but he loves his fans - and he loves animals - and I will stand by him til I'm dust. How silly you are - your own personal agendas led you astray and gave you away- and you went too far.

      You are far closer to irrelevant Trumpian half-wits tweeting like twits than you are a seminal artiste - and this, you surely knew - darlings...

      -Non-anon of the non-anons

      Delete
    10. Oh the irony.

      Delete
    11. "I genuinely hope Moz wasn't involved". You hope because the reality shatters your own pathetic picture of him. Of course he's involved you stupid attention seeking piece of shirt. Now, fuck off.

      Delete
    12. "but sadly, you don't get his humour either - ouch. He's a nice guy, you know; yes of course he can have an acerbic tongue - but he loves his fans - and he loves animals - and I will stand by him til I'm dust" - but you didn't stand by him, you turned your back the moment he said something truthful about you that hurt.
      Double fuck off.

      Delete
    13. "he loves his fans" - he has them humiliated and ejected from concert halls! You really don't know him at all, do you. The image you have of Morrissey is all in your head. I bet he hates fans like you.

      Treble Fuck off, you cunt.

      Delete
    14. Sorry, who is MTearfull? I am even more confused now.

      Delete
    15. Marianne is an attention-seeking piece of shirt... apparently.

      Delete
    16. Is it a piece of Morrissey's shirt? ��

      Delete
    17. Marianne, so nice of you to comment even if your opening paragraph is nothing but bitter sarcasm.
      I have been meaning to tell you but I couldn't because you blocked me on twitter (but not instagram, I wonder why, to keep up appearances I tell myself) I was reminiscing the other day about the first and last time we were in each other's company. The first time was a blast wasn't it? and we were very into the idea of M being behind Brs. Like children we suspected how and why and motives and moves and it was fun.
      The last time we met one scene strikes me, you know like a memory on replay, when that guy made his way in front of you and I turned around to look for you I saw you were being pushed back. I pushed that guy out of the way and pulled you foward. You thanked me with a piece of M's shirt. Then you went on your way and via instagram You were much more friendly with the tour regulars I could see and that's great.
      My question to you is Do you now deny Morrissey's involvement because the tour regulars also deny it? Or simply because Morrissey would never make fun of you? and what would you do if you ever found out He did? (Last one is hypothetical) That's like 3 questions sorry.
      Lastly, I wanted to say thank you because I believe in mental illness, I know what it was like before the internet so easily connected us. Through this experience of your falling out and the back and forth between yourself and others on twitter, I am learning to identify what depression and mental illness look like via social media. Can someone speak about depression, seek sympathy, communicate, and share about their feelings on one social site,  be different on another site, and then different irl? Sure, it looks like that is the way things are evolving. Maybe those who were annoyed by your tweets were so caught up in the de rigueur of what depression was, they have yet to see what it is becoming.

      Delete
    18. Re 9a long way up):

      "I have a co worker who is just like comrade flip flop. She agrees with one person and then if someone else gives a different opinion, she'll agree with that. comrade flip flop, you try to portray yourself as a free thinker and yet you are probably one of the most easily influenced people I have ever come across.

      You will now disagree, which actually means that once again you are being influenced."

      What I am saying is that I was part of that FTM Groupthink. Now I am not. I have struggled free with the help of a push. There are things that can no longer go unsaid.

      Do you people not understand the ability to contemplate? The ability to think things through and go through a process of understanding and insight?

      There are some around here whom therapy might be useful, as they clearly lack insight and so quickly resort to vindictive abuse. However, for therapy to work you need to look deep into yourself, take responsibility for actions, figure out the whats, whys and hows and learn how to deal with things better in the future. It's a process.

      Some of the anonymous commentators here think that passion and emotional abuse is the way to win an argument. They think that they are right because they are they. End of argument. Debate won already.

      I'm not sorry that I am not like that.

      Delete
    19. Hi Jaz. I appreciate that you have left an intelligent comment rather than just slinging slurs around like some of the others.
      The reason I blocked you on Twitter is that I didn't really want to see any more BRS stuff in my timeline - and unfortunately even if you block OTHER accounts you once followed, you can still see replies - which is a nasty little flaw with Twitter itself. I still follow a handful of BRS'ers who truly extended kindness to me when I was so upset, and in general the ones I still follow do not interact very much with certain accounts. I didn't remove you from Instagram as I think in general you're a nice person.

      In answer to your three questions...
      1. I don't deny M's involvement because the regulars also deny it; it is more so a matter of when you know enough people, you can see some gaps in parts of the BRS story. It's plausible that other people may have enough information to create a number of 'coincidences' and they simply blab secrets like tour dates, etc.
      There was also a distinct switch in the behaviour of the Twitter accounts coinciding with when they were being rude to Marcus last summer... I am not sure what happened there, but suddenly the accounts seemed to lose a fair amount of their wit and became laden with spelling mistakes. Very strange...

      2. While I can't be sure whether M would make fun of me or not, I have major doubts he would hold the views expressed in that "False Victimhood" article posted last year. The views in that article are entirely inconsistent with anything he has ever said regarding mental illness across numerous interviews over the past 30+ years. I believe Moz is extremely empathetic and intuitive regarding mental health, as someone who has suffered with depression himself, and would not say such things. Too many facets of that particular article seem faulty. I also don't believe he would write something like that because it is quite a reckless article - and while it was (apparently) intended for me - a young, uninvolved, vulnerable, depressed fan could also come across it and it could do some serious damage to their mental health. I know it did to mine.

      3. What would I do if I found out he was involved? is a very difficult question. I would be heartbroken, and devastated, but the truth is you cannot force other people to like you no matter how much you care for them.

      Delete
    20. Comrade flip flop, you are pathetic. Go back to f***ing your prostitutes, you pervert.

      Delete
    21. MTearfull, you have f***ed up big time."It's plausible that other people may have enough information to create a number of 'coincidences' and they simply blab secrets like tour dates, etc" -- what a load of absolute crap. You lose.

      Delete
    22. Jaz has more intelligence in her little fingernail than Marryanne has in her entire being. Go back to flashing your tits all over Instagram, you attention seeking whore.

      Delete
    23. It's merely a plausible theory I'm using to explain coincidences; think of someone like Ferdenzi who seems to get snippets of info, is all I'm saying. I would think more people than M himself know future schedules etc at any given time.

      Congrats on your sexist remarks :)

      Delete
    24. There is nothing plausible about your theory whatsoever. Your clutching at straws but you haven't many left. Your God is not what you thought.

      Sexist remark? You mean that you really don't purposefully expose your breasts for attention? More bs. Put the saggy fuckers away.

      Delete
    25. Are you saying that Roberto Ferdenzi is the person pretending to be Morrissey?

      Delete
  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "Type II: Closed-mindedness
    ...
    2 - Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent, or stupid."

    HAHAHAHAHA.

    I am screaming.

    This is SO "Rat"

    He does this every time.

    Chuck, Marcus, Marianne, Rosy, Sabine, and now you Comrade.

    Groupthink a la cult.

    I am STILL screaming!

    ReplyDelete
  4. I'm confused. Are the people on here a group who thought Morrissey was on Twitter but now think it is just Rat pretending to be morrissey? I personally think Robert is the person behind it all but that is just my thought. One thing I think we all can agree on is that it 100~% is not Morrissey.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Confused,

      I can still accept that it's Morrissey behind the MW blog and (some of) the Twitter accounts and still disagree with some of what he says and have debates and arguments with other members of the BRS, rodent features included. It's not either/or.

      Delete
    2. Confused is on the right track and is stating what those left don't want to realise or their years of this nonsense will feel like a waste of time. Of course it's not Morrissey. I'm not sure who Robert is but that lying fantasist Wratten has to be behind a good portion of it.
      He wrongfully accuses other fans of being homophobic, mocks people's children and families if they come to their senses about his lies, and even allegedly bullied a depressed woman towards a suicide attempt.
      Morrissey had to deny his involvement multiple times and said MW is "dangerous." That says it all right there.

      Delete
    3. Thank you. But what about all those things that have happened? Do you think Robert and Rat are insiders?

      Delete
  5. Some of these Anonymous comments are just full of rage - calling people stupid names like pervert and whore.
    Same shit as So-low fans you hate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fuck off you politically correct twat.

      Delete
    2. I don't hate Solo. It's the best Morrissey site by a country mile. Let's not forget that Morrissey-Solo kept the Moz flag flying when he could easily have disappeared off the radar. Both Mozza and others forget that.

      Delete
  6. It's quite an assumption to say that Morrissey's career ever depended in any way on the existence of solow, but even if you were right about that, it has now turned into an irrelevant playground/cesspool for the emotionally deficient. Most people, including you, forget that.

    As for comrade's article, he's right about the self-proclaimed BRS pope, as proven by Mozfather himself. Whoever was repelled by Rat in the past and publicly disagreed with him, got support by Moz via obvious... SIGNS in return. I'm sure you can do the rest of the math yourself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "got support by Moz via obvious... SIGNS in return" --- please elaborate with an example or two.

      Do you think Moz hates Rat? That certainly isn't what I see. What is it that Morfessa said "Peas in a pod"? You'd like to believe that Morrissey dislikes the rodent as much as you and the rest of your sad little group do but guess what, Moz likes him. Why else would he keep interacting with him on an almost daily basis? Or maybe, just like your saggy breasted Canadian friend, you've now convinced yourself that these pessoas aren't Moz after all. It's all rather painful for you.

      Delete
    2. The only pain I feel is caused by the sound of your head exploding over how I can mentally handle that Morrissey the god of kindness also enjoys interacting with entertaining jerks such as you er or Rat.

      Delete